I have heard from specific people via e-mail who have fasted with Loren personally and they actually said the same things that blog said, only worse.
It is what it is. You have to make an educated decision as to what is right for you. The information is being put out there for you to see. I have met Grant personally and trust him and what he posts. He knows a lot of people in the raw movement as does Dr. Graham.
Loren has slandered Dr. Graham to me personally via e-mail by stating that Doug had his chiropractic license suspended for sexual harrassment and when I checked it out via the Florida State licensing board it was categorically untrue. He had let his license lapse and never had it revoked. And there were no sexual harrassment charges. Big lie. Why would Loren do that?
I also know of another forum adminstrator (Connie from Naked Food Cafe) who met him personally and caught him in some lies and banned him from her forum before it went off line and there is another raw food forum with a popular raw food leader that he is banned from due to catching him in lies.
Also, I posted some court documents on this site when I banned him showing that a young woman died in his care and instead of showing up in court and defending himself, he fled the country to Panama where he remains today.
There are so many other places to go and fast that are reputable and affordable that I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Loren is one man out of several to fast with and yet his name keeps coming up again and again in a bad way and I never hear bad stuff about the others. Why is that?
Shouldn't that be enough to tell you something?
His money issues are problematic. One raw food leader wasn't going to get paid for referrals sent to Loren's clinic from a video they made interviewing Loren---Loren lied and said that he hadn't gotten any referrals from it even though an intern told them that they knew of at least 4 people who signed up at his fasting retreat due to that video.
It seems that Loren can't seem to change his ways and that's too bad.
If you choose to risk it and fly to another country, go without food for weeks and possibly have him scream at you while he is driving you back to the airport and have him threaten to leave you on the side of the road then that is your choice.
While I understand your concern of wanting specific names because you feel that there might be fake people out there who just want to malign Loren's character, I can assure you that I have checked all of this out via real live people whom I have met in person and whom I trust and have come to the conclusion that if there is somebody to not trust, it is Loren. I have checked out all of his claims and they never line up.
He also has been known to use his intern's accounts to post stuff on the internet in his favor.
That's the sad thing about the internet: you really do not know who you are dealing with until you meet them. I've had people say stuff about me without ever meeting me that I am blown away and shocked over since those who know me in person know that it's categorically untrue. And yet, how do I prove it? I can't. And I certainly can't answer to stuff that may be said about me via e-mail privately that I don't know about which is how Loren works. His brother-in-law is an attorney and Loren knows that it's not legally "slander" if it's said via e-mail and not publicly.
And, unfortunately, I have become so cynical on this issue, that how do I know that you, Sven, are not Loren or one of his interns? From everything that I've seen, there really is no way for me to know that, now would I?
No I could as well be Loren, however personally I do not see how this is relevant to what is being discussed here.
This is very relevant because at 2-3 thousand dollars per faster that’s a lot of lost income due to bad publicity, so Loren has every incentive to do damage control to his reputation although he would be better off doing that proactively, as in treating his clients right so that he gets good referrals. There is a claim in that blogpost that he uses intern to do his dirty work and that he often uses their internet accounts, so why would it be too far fetched to belief you could be him?
But believe me, I do have doubts, suspicions, gives into believing what (I find) trustworthy people says about other people to a certain extent.
I already told you that I have heard accounts from people I know personally and trust so that is not an issue for me. It sounds like you are the type that has to learn first hand. Have fun fasting with him. Other's haven't had such a good experience and have shared that and they have a right to do that.
Loren was on this website and had every opportunity to clear his name and I asked him about concerns I had with what I heard and here was his response:
Thanks for sharing .
The "intern" was not an intern, but a woman I had been communicating with on-line for some time. She wanted to visit, and at the last minute, told me that she didn't have ticket $, but could pay me when she arrived. She arrived with no money, drunk, smoking cigarettes, and a total mess.
She bad been lying, misrepresenting herself as raw. She had cut herself dozens of times, & was convinced that the Bnai Brit used her for evil experiments and raped her as child. .
She was incredibly uptight, and I was giving her a massage to try to help her relax. She encouraged me to feel her enhanced breasts, and then start freaking out when I did.
I told her that she would have to fast and clean out if she was going to stay any longer, and she wound up screaming about that, and then, fortunately, leaving, promising to pay me back when she could. A year later, I asked for the $, & she told me to "fuck off and die."
Your source was not there to see what actually happened, nor was she privy to the conversations and agreements that were in place before the argument occurred.
I don't raise my voice easily, but it happens sometimes. I've been meditating for 35 years & believe that it is all about spiritual growth.
Incidentally, I'm nearly 49 and single. I've had a number of serious relationships and many more less-than serious ones. I've had a very active sex life and do not get upset if a woman is not interested in me. Unfortunately, this seems to be the rule, rather than the exception.
The second woman was an intern. She was very thin and clearly Not assimilating. She had been eating raw for sometime and not improving much. I encouraged her to come, and as is often the case with people who get "way too thin," she had little muscle to begin with. Even though did indeed look pretty scary, she was carrying plenty of body fat (something we measure on intake and once/week.) She could have easily fasted for 3 weeks, but chose to quit after about 8 days. I did indeed encourage her to continue, because coaching people to the success that they commit to up-front is my job. She was upset because she wanted to stay on as an intern without completing the 21 day fast, and I didn't let her.
Okay, here’s a personal account of a woman who fasted with him:
Well, I think I can paint a fairly objective perspective - at least I will try. I have no hard feelings towards him - I see where he is very 'human' - and also see where he can add a lot of value to this world...
Basically, Loren has woman issues - he has a lot of 'stuff' from his past (mother stuff) that he is working through in his relationships with women...and in a tropical retreat, you can imagine how that might play out.
I was there 2x - the first time it was great - I was just helping out - there were only 2 fasters - he head butted with one of the gals (after making sexually suggestive comments she got really irritated easily by him)...bottom line, he gets really triggered with certain women and they him - I am certain it is a mutual energy exchange. I would say in that case, it rolled out like this...he made a move on her, she rejected - he felt rejected and got short with her - she also was a very strong woman and wanted her tomatoes instead of papaya and he said no and the fighting began - it was all very trivial.
The second time I went - which was for my fast, he had brought a gal down from Canada to 'work' - well, he met her on a dating site...needless to say, he made a very sexual move on her and she felt he had violated her. All I can say is that neither one had their screws all on tight....
After that, they had SCREAMING matches all day and every day - I got to the point where I had to tell her to stop talking and leave because her energy was so draining...and he was the same. It was horrible to have that going on during a fast - there were about 8 fasters there and we were all just blown away by it.
SO, that is why I would never recommend someone go there - you just can't predict when this stuff will happen...and since, it happened 2 out of 2 times while I was there..hmmmm. ;-) Granted, the first wasn't all that bad...it still isn't conducive to a peaceful environment.
NOW, on the fasting side...he is very knowledgeable - but is also kind of dangerous as he *thinks* he knows everything...there is a fine line!
Not sure if you knew this but he left the US because of a gal dying at his last center - and it got ugly (the lawsuit is still out there). He was really open about it with me - and I can see both sides - NH is a tricky concept for the outside world to grasp..with that said, I can ALSO see how he can get a little 'sloppy' in drawing the line...but all in all, I think he had good intentions with this gal that died.
For instance, a good friend of mine who was fasting there, really wanted to stop and he wouldn't let her...she was going 40+ days...I don't know the actual story as I wasn't there when she broke her fast - but he did get in my face about me breaking my fast...so, I can see him pushing the lines (personally, I always remain in control over my body so I don't subscribe to the idea that he would 'make' someone do something they didn't want to). I think there is another element to human interactions that Loren is missing...AND I think this is common with a lot of 'gurus' out there (my way or the highway mentality) - AND I also think that is their role as so many people need that...sigh.
The other strange aspect is that he spoke poorly about every Natural Hygiene person out there...
I was also told that a guy died at his location in Panama...Loren and I didn't talk about this so I am not sure if it did happen or not...but the story I heard would tell me that Loren was not at fault at all...
Despite! I really learned a lot from Loren - he is a fruitarian to a T - he does not eat any greens - he also is into some good spiritual books - which plays out except in his relations with certain women! And, I think his base intentions are good. I just could never recommend someone go there for a fast, in particular, because I think the environment is volatile and unpredictable...
Oh, and his staff is FABULOUS!!!
As for the supposed lies you state Michele, from what I've heard at least some of them are disputable. im not here to try to dispute them or anything,
I don’t believe you. Everything about your posts here have been EXACTLY TO DISPUTE the lies that I showed you and you haven’t addressed yet.
I was more than fair to Loren and it was after multiple stories that I made my decision. I do not have to answer to you or anybody else and it seems that more stories keep on surfacing. I am highly suspicious of your motives and tone and seriously wonder if you are Loren himself or a Loren supporter. Why is this so important to you Sven? If you spent any time at all on this forum you would know that I never have tolerated any slander about anybody…Grant is now the owner of this forum and he posted a blog that he felt was relevant based on recent happenings…
I’m getting tired of you defending Loren. Nobody here badmouthed him until stories kept on resurfacing. People have a right to share their stories. I find it interesting that he keeps on trying to suppress them. Of course he would. But then again, that’s what the blog said he does…that he’s controlling. Fast with him if you want to, Sven. I’m not holding you back.
which is how Loren works. His brother-in-law is an attorney and Loren knows that it's not legally "slander" if it's said via e-mail and not publicly.
I don’t know if he is and I don’t care if he is. I was referring to his e-mail to me about Doug that was slanderous that you never addressed at all.
By the way I do not mean any of this in an aggressive way at all..it's just that english is not my first language so...
You are not fooling me, Sven.