RECENT UPDATE
My condolences to the family of Jonathan, who recently died at tanglewood.
I do sincerely hope, that the FBI´s investigation culminates in the complete eradication of loren lockman´s defrauding activities.
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Wanting desperately to know what happened to a fellow faster of mine named Jonathan. He was severely underweight and he fasted at the same time that I did under the supervision of Loren Lockman. Anyone happen to know what happened and what went down? We all want and kind of need to know as we all will or have fasted one time or another.
This is very disturbing to say the least and if we get the truth it shall make things more clear.
Jon was a very smart man in his thrities and he was married. He talked very highly of his life with his wife in COlorado. He missed her very very much and it was all he liked to talk about. He kept telling me how much his wife begged for him to come home..I toldhim to break the fast if he didn't feel like going the full 32(which he did) if he was not up to it) he said Loren reassured him that he was okay.
Loren never checked for Potassium or anything major..Even when I brought it up Loren disputed it. I tild him I read it in Dr Fuhrman;s booka nd he said that Fuhrman didn't know much b/c he was "just an M.D." as he liked to put it.
I am very very heartbroken for Jon's family now and I feel like I lost a good friend.
I am weeping since I heard of this terrible news this morning..Even worse not knowing the details..
I think it is the right thing to do and come forward and tell us what you know if you do know what happened...there is nothing more upsetting than drawing your own creepy conclusions.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez tell us what you know! Anyone????????????
Thanks!
Victoria
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thanks Victoria..I see more to the story as a deep iceberg in the water.. because I was with them all before this all went down. I saw too many signs of this man needing to end his fast at week 2 and I am not even an expert. I am not going to say that I am a wizard and I could have stopped it, but a man of his weight (soooo severely underweight) and the things he was saying should have been a sign to email his wife by Loren the Supervisor much much earlier in my opinion..It was nice of Loren to go to see Jon at the hotel, but honestly, I think this could have worked out a bit better..then there are always the ppl that will say, It was Jon's time and his choice..but I think that there could have been prevention. I am very sad about this..I really thank you so much for the info Victoria, it means a lot.
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I was there when Jonathan died.
"he was acting really weird a day or two before he left... I mean pacing around the property with his lap top in his hand opened, one faster saw him do this for 40 min!"
Thank you for this information. I am still angry that Loren did not contact me sooner about Jonathan's erratic behavior, nor did he do anything to intervene. The entire purpose of Jonathan's being there was so that he would have proper supervision. Incidentally, that lap top went missing, and to my knowledge, has not been found.
"He was just about done his time there, was scheduled to leave Panama in about 3 days... he was about 2-3 weeks into refeeding.... Looking and feeling very good! I spoke to him once and he was really happy with his fast and the way he felt..."
Yes, he was scheduled to fly home in 3 days. Loren's policy is to refeed for 10 days prior to leaving, so Jonathan had only been refeeding for barely a week. The emails I received do corroborate that he was "pleased with how he felt" - but to clarify, I was highly concerned with the euphoric "high" that he seemed to be experiencing after about 3 days of refeeding. But because he was being "supervised", I assumed he was safe...
"Jonathan also was VERY religious and said he had a dream that God told him something like he was no good..."
On Tuesday night/Wednesday morning sometime, he had severe hallucinations. It almost appears, from his email history, that after his euphoric high, he simply crashed. What he described to me in an email as happening that night, and what his roommate James described to me on the phone afterwards were two very different things. He had obviously, at this point, lost touch with reality. The fact that he was religious has no more to do with his death than the fact of Loren's being an atheist has to do with his being alive.
"That evening, He demanded Loren take him to a hotel. Loren did not want to, but Jonathan demanded. He took him to Sora Hotel and Jonathan also refused to eat that day."
As it was told to me by Loren, it was Loren who suggested the hotel as a better alternative to Jonathan's simply walking off into the darkness, as he was apparently trying to do. Again, I am angry that at this point in time I had still not been contacted by Tanglewood in any way, alerting me that anything was amiss.
"THe next morning Loren went there to give him some fruit to eat and found Jonathan at the bottom of the stair case, he had fallen.... hit his head... was unconscious... From there he went to the hospital and died 2-3 days later."
The accident apparently happened sometime on Thursday morning, January 27. He was in a coma for 5 days, and died on the morning of February 1. My last contact with him was around 12:40am Panamanian time (by cell phone text, since by this time I was becoming worried on my own, but I did not call his cell phone because I did not wish to disturb his roommate at 1am - believing he was still at Tanglewood, which he was not) and Loren found him at around 9am Panamanian time. I had sent another text to him at 12:50am, but when I received his cell phone back, that text had never been read by him. Also, on the previous day, at 1:30pm, he placed a 911 call from his cell phone. He was obviously in distress, and I was completely unaware of it.
"His wife was there, seemed she was not surprised, he wrote her an email/text stating that she was not going to see him again (according to Loren)"
I booked a flight to Panama as soon as Loren told me of the accident, arriving around noon the next day. His email describing his hallucinations did include a premonition of death and that I might not see him again. Jonathan was taken to a state hospital in Panama City, which only permits visitation for one hour a day, from 6pm to 7pm. If your family member is in ICU (as Jonathan was), you may also come from 11:30am to noon to visit, and then get an update from the doctors. Jonathan died at around 8:45am, so I was not permitted to be with him at that time, although I immediately went to the hospital when I received the phone call from the US Embassy informing me of his death.
"HE had a history of depression he did not tell Loren about According to Loren)"
Blatantly untrue. Anyone who goes to our website and looks at the pictures of our life together (coloradoexplorers.com) can see how ridiculously happy we were.
"HIs wife ruled cause of death accidental"
Cause of death is officially "severe head trauma due to falling". I don't think spouses have the authority to "rule" anything. In fact, I have recently been contacted by the FBI, who was contacted through Interpol by the Panamanian authorities, and all of these events are currently under investigation.
sexta-feira, 30 de maio de 2014
Maria Estella´s Experience
To whom it may concern, this is one of the latest updates on this man and his center. I'm the student cited on this article....and yes I lost my money as well! It's almost 9 months now I've been trying to get a hold of this guy but it wasnt until things were made public that he came up with a bible long email explaining why he was missing with a lot of crap. I wonder why we still do a search on google on his name but none of the bad stuff comes out. We need to inform people about this guy.
If anyone else bought a package for Tanglewood in Panama, not knowing that they had moved or were going to move, please let us know as I would like to talk to you..thanks. Cynthia Allf - https://www.facebook.com/cynthiaallf
Maria Estela - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=507793929
Read the article posted below.
Loren Lockman Bait & Switched Locations of the retreat and then did not honor the fasting package I had purchased and trade agreement.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/healthcare-centers/loren-lockman/loren-lockman-bait-switched-a18d0.htm
If anyone else bought a package for Tanglewood in Panama, not knowing that they had moved or were going to move, please let us know as I would like to talk to you..thanks. Cynthia Allf - https://www.facebook.com/cynthiaallf
Maria Estela - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=507793929
Read the article posted below.
Loren Lockman Bait & Switched Locations of the retreat and then did not honor the fasting package I had purchased and trade agreement.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/healthcare-centers/loren-lockman/loren-lockman-bait-switched-a18d0.htm
The purpose of this blog
The objective of this blog is to expose the fact that the tanglewood "wellness" center run by loren lockman is far from being a plausible and safe option in regards to the care provided to their clients, principally because of the negligent, insulting and even abusive behavior of loren lockman himself.
While an enormous number of individuals have decided to keep silent in regards to their infelicities at tanglewood, a few others did come forward in order better elucidate about the intricacies of their experience.
The following reports are not related in any way, other than in the referral of events that took place at tanglewood. The fact that a pattern of characteristics is made obvious can only be interpreted as an undeniable sign not only of the consistency of the problems and their lack of coincidence, but also of the perpetuation and incorrigibility of loren lockman´s behavior through out the years.
Without any request or mention whatsoever, loren lockman will start spewing out attacks about other raw food leaders to his fasting clientele, during his lectures and discussions at tanglewood.
The substance of these attacks is so outrageous and lie full, that it can only deceive those who are not aware of the impeccable work and manhood of the individuals under the attack of loren´s poisonous tongue.
loren´s strategy is to basically project all of his defects towards those who he envies. Fortunately, his multiple attempts to convince his audience of the superiority of his persona, only result in the explicit exposure of his warmongering egomaniac personality.
Defining the specificity of his attacks would be to fuel the absurd, but the main idea that loren so desperately tries to sell, is that he is the one responsible for all the success of others and that he is the most experienced authority in the health scene. What we know for a fact is that the majority of individuals who follow his program fail to comply, because although to the inexperienced it may sound plausible, in the eyes of a truly qualified health professional the program contains structural corruption that can only lead back to the the usage of the foods known to be problematic. A straight forward indicative that there is something very wrong with loren´s professing´s is that the vocabulary required to defend them is polluted by words such as "asshole", "douche bag", "jerk" and even "f***". Not exactly what you would want to hear on normal day, let alone after one month on water.
As would be expected all those who were a victim of his preposterous accusations were fast to debunk them to ridicule.
It seems the general feeling towards loren is one of pity, and it is within this line that I wish to express that despite his irresponsible behavior and lack of professionalism that indeed promptly disqualify him from the role of a fasting supervisor, we all do ultimately forgive him.
There are multiple honest reports, that evidence loren´s sexual harassing behavior, his incapacity to pay old debts, his egoistic and insulting expressions and his negligent behavior in taking care of fasters among many others, but let us take note that despite all this loren is still deserving of our respect and comprehension, and this exposition would have never been born if his behavior wasn't capable of influencing the unsuspecting individuals, who being unaware, would so easily fall prey of the machinations of his business, particularly during the very sensitive experience of a fast.
"I do not recommend Loren Lockman for a wide variety of reasons including but not limited to irresponsible fasting procedures, sexual harassment of women fasters, theft and poor recovery services. There have been far too many people to come forward with horrendous fasting experiences at Tanglewood for us to ever suggest you fast there"
ANOTHER PERSON RECENTLY DIED UNDER THE "CARE" OF LOREN LOCKMAN. EVIDENCE OF NEGLIGENCE IS NOT SURPRISING!
While an enormous number of individuals have decided to keep silent in regards to their infelicities at tanglewood, a few others did come forward in order better elucidate about the intricacies of their experience.
The following reports are not related in any way, other than in the referral of events that took place at tanglewood. The fact that a pattern of characteristics is made obvious can only be interpreted as an undeniable sign not only of the consistency of the problems and their lack of coincidence, but also of the perpetuation and incorrigibility of loren lockman´s behavior through out the years.
Without any request or mention whatsoever, loren lockman will start spewing out attacks about other raw food leaders to his fasting clientele, during his lectures and discussions at tanglewood.
The substance of these attacks is so outrageous and lie full, that it can only deceive those who are not aware of the impeccable work and manhood of the individuals under the attack of loren´s poisonous tongue.
loren´s strategy is to basically project all of his defects towards those who he envies. Fortunately, his multiple attempts to convince his audience of the superiority of his persona, only result in the explicit exposure of his warmongering egomaniac personality.
Defining the specificity of his attacks would be to fuel the absurd, but the main idea that loren so desperately tries to sell, is that he is the one responsible for all the success of others and that he is the most experienced authority in the health scene. What we know for a fact is that the majority of individuals who follow his program fail to comply, because although to the inexperienced it may sound plausible, in the eyes of a truly qualified health professional the program contains structural corruption that can only lead back to the the usage of the foods known to be problematic. A straight forward indicative that there is something very wrong with loren´s professing´s is that the vocabulary required to defend them is polluted by words such as "asshole", "douche bag", "jerk" and even "f***". Not exactly what you would want to hear on normal day, let alone after one month on water.
As would be expected all those who were a victim of his preposterous accusations were fast to debunk them to ridicule.
It seems the general feeling towards loren is one of pity, and it is within this line that I wish to express that despite his irresponsible behavior and lack of professionalism that indeed promptly disqualify him from the role of a fasting supervisor, we all do ultimately forgive him.
There are multiple honest reports, that evidence loren´s sexual harassing behavior, his incapacity to pay old debts, his egoistic and insulting expressions and his negligent behavior in taking care of fasters among many others, but let us take note that despite all this loren is still deserving of our respect and comprehension, and this exposition would have never been born if his behavior wasn't capable of influencing the unsuspecting individuals, who being unaware, would so easily fall prey of the machinations of his business, particularly during the very sensitive experience of a fast.
"I do not recommend Loren Lockman for a wide variety of reasons including but not limited to irresponsible fasting procedures, sexual harassment of women fasters, theft and poor recovery services. There have been far too many people to come forward with horrendous fasting experiences at Tanglewood for us to ever suggest you fast there"
ANOTHER PERSON RECENTLY DIED UNDER THE "CARE" OF LOREN LOCKMAN. EVIDENCE OF NEGLIGENCE IS NOT SURPRISING!
Michelle vs Sven
By Michele
Hey Sven,
I have heard from specific people via e-mail who have fasted with Loren personally and they actually said the same things that blog said, only worse.
It is what it is. You have to make an educated decision as to what is right for you. The information is being put out there for you to see. I have met Grant personally and trust him and what he posts. He knows a lot of people in the raw movement as does Dr. Graham.
Loren has slandered Dr. Graham to me personally via e-mail by stating that Doug had his chiropractic license suspended for sexual harrassment and when I checked it out via the Florida State licensing board it was categorically untrue. He had let his license lapse and never had it revoked. And there were no sexual harrassment charges. Big lie. Why would Loren do that?
I also know of another forum adminstrator (Connie from Naked Food Cafe) who met him personally and caught him in some lies and banned him from her forum before it went off line and there is another raw food forum with a popular raw food leader that he is banned from due to catching him in lies.
Also, I posted some court documents on this site when I banned him showing that a young woman died in his care and instead of showing up in court and defending himself, he fled the country to Panama where he remains today.
There are so many other places to go and fast that are reputable and affordable that I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Loren is one man out of several to fast with and yet his name keeps coming up again and again in a bad way and I never hear bad stuff about the others. Why is that?
Shouldn't that be enough to tell you something?
His money issues are problematic. One raw food leader wasn't going to get paid for referrals sent to Loren's clinic from a video they made interviewing Loren---Loren lied and said that he hadn't gotten any referrals from it even though an intern told them that they knew of at least 4 people who signed up at his fasting retreat due to that video.
It seems that Loren can't seem to change his ways and that's too bad.
If you choose to risk it and fly to another country, go without food for weeks and possibly have him scream at you while he is driving you back to the airport and have him threaten to leave you on the side of the road then that is your choice.
While I understand your concern of wanting specific names because you feel that there might be fake people out there who just want to malign Loren's character, I can assure you that I have checked all of this out via real live people whom I have met in person and whom I trust and have come to the conclusion that if there is somebody to not trust, it is Loren. I have checked out all of his claims and they never line up.
He also has been known to use his intern's accounts to post stuff on the internet in his favor.
That's the sad thing about the internet: you really do not know who you are dealing with until you meet them. I've had people say stuff about me without ever meeting me that I am blown away and shocked over since those who know me in person know that it's categorically untrue. And yet, how do I prove it? I can't. And I certainly can't answer to stuff that may be said about me via e-mail privately that I don't know about which is how Loren works. His brother-in-law is an attorney and Loren knows that it's not legally "slander" if it's said via e-mail and not publicly.
And, unfortunately, I have become so cynical on this issue, that how do I know that you, Sven, are not Loren or one of his interns? From everything that I've seen, there really is no way for me to know that, now would I?
Sven:
Hi Michele,
No I could as well be Loren, however personally I do not see how this is relevant to what is being discussed here.
Michelle:
This is very relevant because at 2-3 thousand dollars per faster that’s a lot of lost income due to bad publicity, so Loren has every incentive to do damage control to his reputation although he would be better off doing that proactively, as in treating his clients right so that he gets good referrals. There is a claim in that blogpost that he uses intern to do his dirty work and that he often uses their internet accounts, so why would it be too far fetched to belief you could be him?
Sven:
But believe me, I do have doubts, suspicions, gives into believing what (I find) trustworthy people says about other people to a certain extent.
Michelle:
I already told you that I have heard accounts from people I know personally and trust so that is not an issue for me. It sounds like you are the type that has to learn first hand. Have fun fasting with him. Other's haven't had such a good experience and have shared that and they have a right to do that.
Loren was on this website and had every opportunity to clear his name and I asked him about concerns I had with what I heard and here was his response:
Hi Michele,
Thanks for sharing .
The "intern" was not an intern, but a woman I had been communicating with on-line for some time. She wanted to visit, and at the last minute, told me that she didn't have ticket $, but could pay me when she arrived. She arrived with no money, drunk, smoking cigarettes, and a total mess.
She bad been lying, misrepresenting herself as raw. She had cut herself dozens of times, & was convinced that the Bnai Brit used her for evil experiments and raped her as child. .
She was incredibly uptight, and I was giving her a massage to try to help her relax. She encouraged me to feel her enhanced breasts, and then start freaking out when I did.
I told her that she would have to fast and clean out if she was going to stay any longer, and she wound up screaming about that, and then, fortunately, leaving, promising to pay me back when she could. A year later, I asked for the $, & she told me to "fuck off and die."
Your source was not there to see what actually happened, nor was she privy to the conversations and agreements that were in place before the argument occurred.
I don't raise my voice easily, but it happens sometimes. I've been meditating for 35 years & believe that it is all about spiritual growth.
Incidentally, I'm nearly 49 and single. I've had a number of serious relationships and many more less-than serious ones. I've had a very active sex life and do not get upset if a woman is not interested in me. Unfortunately, this seems to be the rule, rather than the exception.
The second woman was an intern. She was very thin and clearly Not assimilating. She had been eating raw for sometime and not improving much. I encouraged her to come, and as is often the case with people who get "way too thin," she had little muscle to begin with. Even though did indeed look pretty scary, she was carrying plenty of body fat (something we measure on intake and once/week.) She could have easily fasted for 3 weeks, but chose to quit after about 8 days. I did indeed encourage her to continue, because coaching people to the success that they commit to up-front is my job. She was upset because she wanted to stay on as an intern without completing the 21 day fast, and I didn't let her.
Loren
Michelle:
Okay, here’s a personal account of a woman who fasted with him:
Well, I think I can paint a fairly objective perspective - at least I will try. I have no hard feelings towards him - I see where he is very 'human' - and also see where he can add a lot of value to this world...
Basically, Loren has woman issues - he has a lot of 'stuff' from his past (mother stuff) that he is working through in his relationships with women...and in a tropical retreat, you can imagine how that might play out.
I was there 2x - the first time it was great - I was just helping out - there were only 2 fasters - he head butted with one of the gals (after making sexually suggestive comments she got really irritated easily by him)...bottom line, he gets really triggered with certain women and they him - I am certain it is a mutual energy exchange. I would say in that case, it rolled out like this...he made a move on her, she rejected - he felt rejected and got short with her - she also was a very strong woman and wanted her tomatoes instead of papaya and he said no and the fighting began - it was all very trivial.
The second time I went - which was for my fast, he had brought a gal down from Canada to 'work' - well, he met her on a dating site...needless to say, he made a very sexual move on her and she felt he had violated her. All I can say is that neither one had their screws all on tight....
After that, they had SCREAMING matches all day and every day - I got to the point where I had to tell her to stop talking and leave because her energy was so draining...and he was the same. It was horrible to have that going on during a fast - there were about 8 fasters there and we were all just blown away by it.
SO, that is why I would never recommend someone go there - you just can't predict when this stuff will happen...and since, it happened 2 out of 2 times while I was there..hmmmm. ;-) Granted, the first wasn't all that bad...it still isn't conducive to a peaceful environment.
NOW, on the fasting side...he is very knowledgeable - but is also kind of dangerous as he *thinks* he knows everything...there is a fine line!
Not sure if you knew this but he left the US because of a gal dying at his last center - and it got ugly (the lawsuit is still out there). He was really open about it with me - and I can see both sides - NH is a tricky concept for the outside world to grasp..with that said, I can ALSO see how he can get a little 'sloppy' in drawing the line...but all in all, I think he had good intentions with this gal that died.
For instance, a good friend of mine who was fasting there, really wanted to stop and he wouldn't let her...she was going 40+ days...I don't know the actual story as I wasn't there when she broke her fast - but he did get in my face about me breaking my fast...so, I can see him pushing the lines (personally, I always remain in control over my body so I don't subscribe to the idea that he would 'make' someone do something they didn't want to). I think there is another element to human interactions that Loren is missing...AND I think this is common with a lot of 'gurus' out there (my way or the highway mentality) - AND I also think that is their role as so many people need that...sigh.
The other strange aspect is that he spoke poorly about every Natural Hygiene person out there...
I was also told that a guy died at his location in Panama...Loren and I didn't talk about this so I am not sure if it did happen or not...but the story I heard would tell me that Loren was not at fault at all...
Despite! I really learned a lot from Loren - he is a fruitarian to a T - he does not eat any greens - he also is into some good spiritual books - which plays out except in his relations with certain women! And, I think his base intentions are good. I just could never recommend someone go there for a fast, in particular, because I think the environment is volatile and unpredictable...
Oh, and his staff is FABULOUS!!!
Sven:
As for the supposed lies you state Michele, from what I've heard at least some of them are disputable. im not here to try to dispute them or anything,
Michelle:
I don’t believe you. Everything about your posts here have been EXACTLY TO DISPUTE the lies that I showed you and you haven’t addressed yet.
I was more than fair to Loren and it was after multiple stories that I made my decision. I do not have to answer to you or anybody else and it seems that more stories keep on surfacing. I am highly suspicious of your motives and tone and seriously wonder if you are Loren himself or a Loren supporter. Why is this so important to you Sven? If you spent any time at all on this forum you would know that I never have tolerated any slander about anybody…Grant is now the owner of this forum and he posted a blog that he felt was relevant based on recent happenings…
I’m getting tired of you defending Loren. Nobody here badmouthed him until stories kept on resurfacing. People have a right to share their stories. I find it interesting that he keeps on trying to suppress them. Of course he would. But then again, that’s what the blog said he does…that he’s controlling. Fast with him if you want to, Sven. I’m not holding you back.
which is how Loren works. His brother-in-law is an attorney and Loren knows that it's not legally "slander" if it's said via e-mail and not publicly.
I don’t know if he is and I don’t care if he is. I was referring to his e-mail to me about Doug that was slanderous that you never addressed at all.
Sven:
By the way I do not mean any of this in an aggressive way at all..it's just that english is not my first language so...
Me:
You are not fooling me, Sven.
Hey Sven,
I have heard from specific people via e-mail who have fasted with Loren personally and they actually said the same things that blog said, only worse.
It is what it is. You have to make an educated decision as to what is right for you. The information is being put out there for you to see. I have met Grant personally and trust him and what he posts. He knows a lot of people in the raw movement as does Dr. Graham.
Loren has slandered Dr. Graham to me personally via e-mail by stating that Doug had his chiropractic license suspended for sexual harrassment and when I checked it out via the Florida State licensing board it was categorically untrue. He had let his license lapse and never had it revoked. And there were no sexual harrassment charges. Big lie. Why would Loren do that?
I also know of another forum adminstrator (Connie from Naked Food Cafe) who met him personally and caught him in some lies and banned him from her forum before it went off line and there is another raw food forum with a popular raw food leader that he is banned from due to catching him in lies.
Also, I posted some court documents on this site when I banned him showing that a young woman died in his care and instead of showing up in court and defending himself, he fled the country to Panama where he remains today.
There are so many other places to go and fast that are reputable and affordable that I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Loren is one man out of several to fast with and yet his name keeps coming up again and again in a bad way and I never hear bad stuff about the others. Why is that?
Shouldn't that be enough to tell you something?
His money issues are problematic. One raw food leader wasn't going to get paid for referrals sent to Loren's clinic from a video they made interviewing Loren---Loren lied and said that he hadn't gotten any referrals from it even though an intern told them that they knew of at least 4 people who signed up at his fasting retreat due to that video.
It seems that Loren can't seem to change his ways and that's too bad.
If you choose to risk it and fly to another country, go without food for weeks and possibly have him scream at you while he is driving you back to the airport and have him threaten to leave you on the side of the road then that is your choice.
While I understand your concern of wanting specific names because you feel that there might be fake people out there who just want to malign Loren's character, I can assure you that I have checked all of this out via real live people whom I have met in person and whom I trust and have come to the conclusion that if there is somebody to not trust, it is Loren. I have checked out all of his claims and they never line up.
He also has been known to use his intern's accounts to post stuff on the internet in his favor.
That's the sad thing about the internet: you really do not know who you are dealing with until you meet them. I've had people say stuff about me without ever meeting me that I am blown away and shocked over since those who know me in person know that it's categorically untrue. And yet, how do I prove it? I can't. And I certainly can't answer to stuff that may be said about me via e-mail privately that I don't know about which is how Loren works. His brother-in-law is an attorney and Loren knows that it's not legally "slander" if it's said via e-mail and not publicly.
And, unfortunately, I have become so cynical on this issue, that how do I know that you, Sven, are not Loren or one of his interns? From everything that I've seen, there really is no way for me to know that, now would I?
Sven:
Hi Michele,
No I could as well be Loren, however personally I do not see how this is relevant to what is being discussed here.
Michelle:
This is very relevant because at 2-3 thousand dollars per faster that’s a lot of lost income due to bad publicity, so Loren has every incentive to do damage control to his reputation although he would be better off doing that proactively, as in treating his clients right so that he gets good referrals. There is a claim in that blogpost that he uses intern to do his dirty work and that he often uses their internet accounts, so why would it be too far fetched to belief you could be him?
Sven:
But believe me, I do have doubts, suspicions, gives into believing what (I find) trustworthy people says about other people to a certain extent.
Michelle:
I already told you that I have heard accounts from people I know personally and trust so that is not an issue for me. It sounds like you are the type that has to learn first hand. Have fun fasting with him. Other's haven't had such a good experience and have shared that and they have a right to do that.
Loren was on this website and had every opportunity to clear his name and I asked him about concerns I had with what I heard and here was his response:
Hi Michele,
Thanks for sharing .
The "intern" was not an intern, but a woman I had been communicating with on-line for some time. She wanted to visit, and at the last minute, told me that she didn't have ticket $, but could pay me when she arrived. She arrived with no money, drunk, smoking cigarettes, and a total mess.
She bad been lying, misrepresenting herself as raw. She had cut herself dozens of times, & was convinced that the Bnai Brit used her for evil experiments and raped her as child. .
She was incredibly uptight, and I was giving her a massage to try to help her relax. She encouraged me to feel her enhanced breasts, and then start freaking out when I did.
I told her that she would have to fast and clean out if she was going to stay any longer, and she wound up screaming about that, and then, fortunately, leaving, promising to pay me back when she could. A year later, I asked for the $, & she told me to "fuck off and die."
Your source was not there to see what actually happened, nor was she privy to the conversations and agreements that were in place before the argument occurred.
I don't raise my voice easily, but it happens sometimes. I've been meditating for 35 years & believe that it is all about spiritual growth.
Incidentally, I'm nearly 49 and single. I've had a number of serious relationships and many more less-than serious ones. I've had a very active sex life and do not get upset if a woman is not interested in me. Unfortunately, this seems to be the rule, rather than the exception.
The second woman was an intern. She was very thin and clearly Not assimilating. She had been eating raw for sometime and not improving much. I encouraged her to come, and as is often the case with people who get "way too thin," she had little muscle to begin with. Even though did indeed look pretty scary, she was carrying plenty of body fat (something we measure on intake and once/week.) She could have easily fasted for 3 weeks, but chose to quit after about 8 days. I did indeed encourage her to continue, because coaching people to the success that they commit to up-front is my job. She was upset because she wanted to stay on as an intern without completing the 21 day fast, and I didn't let her.
Loren
Michelle:
Okay, here’s a personal account of a woman who fasted with him:
Well, I think I can paint a fairly objective perspective - at least I will try. I have no hard feelings towards him - I see where he is very 'human' - and also see where he can add a lot of value to this world...
Basically, Loren has woman issues - he has a lot of 'stuff' from his past (mother stuff) that he is working through in his relationships with women...and in a tropical retreat, you can imagine how that might play out.
I was there 2x - the first time it was great - I was just helping out - there were only 2 fasters - he head butted with one of the gals (after making sexually suggestive comments she got really irritated easily by him)...bottom line, he gets really triggered with certain women and they him - I am certain it is a mutual energy exchange. I would say in that case, it rolled out like this...he made a move on her, she rejected - he felt rejected and got short with her - she also was a very strong woman and wanted her tomatoes instead of papaya and he said no and the fighting began - it was all very trivial.
The second time I went - which was for my fast, he had brought a gal down from Canada to 'work' - well, he met her on a dating site...needless to say, he made a very sexual move on her and she felt he had violated her. All I can say is that neither one had their screws all on tight....
After that, they had SCREAMING matches all day and every day - I got to the point where I had to tell her to stop talking and leave because her energy was so draining...and he was the same. It was horrible to have that going on during a fast - there were about 8 fasters there and we were all just blown away by it.
SO, that is why I would never recommend someone go there - you just can't predict when this stuff will happen...and since, it happened 2 out of 2 times while I was there..hmmmm. ;-) Granted, the first wasn't all that bad...it still isn't conducive to a peaceful environment.
NOW, on the fasting side...he is very knowledgeable - but is also kind of dangerous as he *thinks* he knows everything...there is a fine line!
Not sure if you knew this but he left the US because of a gal dying at his last center - and it got ugly (the lawsuit is still out there). He was really open about it with me - and I can see both sides - NH is a tricky concept for the outside world to grasp..with that said, I can ALSO see how he can get a little 'sloppy' in drawing the line...but all in all, I think he had good intentions with this gal that died.
For instance, a good friend of mine who was fasting there, really wanted to stop and he wouldn't let her...she was going 40+ days...I don't know the actual story as I wasn't there when she broke her fast - but he did get in my face about me breaking my fast...so, I can see him pushing the lines (personally, I always remain in control over my body so I don't subscribe to the idea that he would 'make' someone do something they didn't want to). I think there is another element to human interactions that Loren is missing...AND I think this is common with a lot of 'gurus' out there (my way or the highway mentality) - AND I also think that is their role as so many people need that...sigh.
The other strange aspect is that he spoke poorly about every Natural Hygiene person out there...
I was also told that a guy died at his location in Panama...Loren and I didn't talk about this so I am not sure if it did happen or not...but the story I heard would tell me that Loren was not at fault at all...
Despite! I really learned a lot from Loren - he is a fruitarian to a T - he does not eat any greens - he also is into some good spiritual books - which plays out except in his relations with certain women! And, I think his base intentions are good. I just could never recommend someone go there for a fast, in particular, because I think the environment is volatile and unpredictable...
Oh, and his staff is FABULOUS!!!
Sven:
As for the supposed lies you state Michele, from what I've heard at least some of them are disputable. im not here to try to dispute them or anything,
Michelle:
I don’t believe you. Everything about your posts here have been EXACTLY TO DISPUTE the lies that I showed you and you haven’t addressed yet.
I was more than fair to Loren and it was after multiple stories that I made my decision. I do not have to answer to you or anybody else and it seems that more stories keep on surfacing. I am highly suspicious of your motives and tone and seriously wonder if you are Loren himself or a Loren supporter. Why is this so important to you Sven? If you spent any time at all on this forum you would know that I never have tolerated any slander about anybody…Grant is now the owner of this forum and he posted a blog that he felt was relevant based on recent happenings…
I’m getting tired of you defending Loren. Nobody here badmouthed him until stories kept on resurfacing. People have a right to share their stories. I find it interesting that he keeps on trying to suppress them. Of course he would. But then again, that’s what the blog said he does…that he’s controlling. Fast with him if you want to, Sven. I’m not holding you back.
which is how Loren works. His brother-in-law is an attorney and Loren knows that it's not legally "slander" if it's said via e-mail and not publicly.
I don’t know if he is and I don’t care if he is. I was referring to his e-mail to me about Doug that was slanderous that you never addressed at all.
Sven:
By the way I do not mean any of this in an aggressive way at all..it's just that english is not my first language so...
Me:
You are not fooling me, Sven.
Shelah Segal´s Experience
By Shelah Segal
Hi Victoria and all,
I just want to share what I posted on another forum about my experience at Tanglewood 3 years ago:
"I chose to go to Tanglewood because I wanted to be an intern, but also to fast. His internship program involves each intern starting with a 21 day fast, a week or so refeeding with rest, a month of training and the last month assisting paying fasters and the next group of interns. Sounded very comprehensive and it was affordable because you would pay pretty much the same as a paying faster would for a 28 day stay, and after you completed your internship, you'd get almost 1/2 back. So off I went.
My reason for wanting to fast was that I was very underweight, had tried a million different holistic approaches to try to gain weight, none of which worked, and had already been eating LFRV for over a year before the fast. I'd read that Shelton had fasted (usually for 1 to 2 weeks) underweight people with great success. I am 5'2" and was at 80 lbs when I started the fast. Loren had assured me that all would be well and that at my weight I probably wouldn't lose weight as rapidly as other fasters, so I might even be able to go the full 21 days, though he'd monitor closely as with all fasters.
Well, after 8 days, I had dropped to 68 lbs and was a bit freaked out about it. I felt a bit strange in the chest area as well and called Loren in to tell him that I thought I should end my fast. He was very agreeable, which surprised me because I had already been hearing from others there that he could be very insistent and controlling. Another couple that were there as interns as well were told to leave when the woman decided to end her fast after 5 days -- he said they had thereby broken their internship contract.
The next morning, I began to refeed slowly and continued to do so for a full week when Loren came to me and informed me that I would need to resume my fast. He tried at first to convince me by saying that my health goals would be better met that way, but I was not feeling good about it. During that week, there had been more strange incidents and reports of rude and inappropriate behavior with other fasters. (Since I didn't witness those first-hand, I won't give those details here) But I was feeling nervous. I asked him for how long he'd expect me to fast and he said 6 or 7 more days. I had only gained back 2 lbs, so I asked what he would do if I asked to stop before the 6 or 7 days. He openly said, with a smile, that he'd give me a really hard time! I knew that I was feeling stronger at that moment, but that I'd surely be weaker and more vulnerable if I started fasting again. I thought deeply about my decision and finally told him no. He then began to harass me about being an intern and having to do whatever the coach says, that it was like being on a sports team and arguing with the coach -- no matter what he may ask of his athletes, they must obey. I knew then that I was making the right decision because I saw his attitude as potentially dangerous. He continued to harass me for another day and a half and finally told me that I would have to leave Tanglewood, immediately, since I was breaking my contract. I had no place to go, no transportation,no time to book a new plane ticket home, and no Spanish skills, weighed under 70 lbs and felt physically weaker than I'd have liked. I was scared. Maybe he thought I'd give in to his will -- luckily, I was not psychologically weak!
I did end up staying another 10 days because my room mate, another intern, who was just finishing up her 40 day fast, did not intend to stay there as the only intern remaining and be subjected to his whims, yet she was too weak to just leave. She threatened to walk out with me if I left right away -- and Loren had enough (barely) decency to acknowledge that her leaving before at least a short controlled refeeding could be very dangerous. We both left after she'd been refeeding for about 8 days, then I stayed with her at a beach house to help her recoup for another week before we parted ways.
Loren was left with no interns, his staff assistant/ office manager quit and several other paying fasters left early with great feelings of trauma. Yet the center still operates -- I hope enough people tell enough people about their experiences so that others can be spared such an ordeal.
As an aside, none of the interns, who all left under duress, were re-imbursed any of our payments."
I'd like to add that my room mate, who was fluent in Spanish, shared with me many of her conversations with the staff, who were all underpaid, ill-treated, afraid of Loren and only remained because work was so hard to obtain.
Also, after my run-in with Loren, when he ordered me to leave immediately, I was visibly shaken up and told others who asked about it. A couple of outspoken guests decided that this was a last straw for them and we all confronted Loren as a group. One of them really laced into him, sharing stories about some incredibly rude and inappropriate comments that he'd made to some of the other fasting guests (these being the incidents I mentioned in my account that I hadn't personally witnessed).
I am glad that you are speaking out here, Victoria. The more details of unprofessionalism, inappropriate behavior and control tactics that can be given, the more others will know to keep their distance from such an unstable and, I think, dangerous man.
Hi Victoria and all,
I just want to share what I posted on another forum about my experience at Tanglewood 3 years ago:
"I chose to go to Tanglewood because I wanted to be an intern, but also to fast. His internship program involves each intern starting with a 21 day fast, a week or so refeeding with rest, a month of training and the last month assisting paying fasters and the next group of interns. Sounded very comprehensive and it was affordable because you would pay pretty much the same as a paying faster would for a 28 day stay, and after you completed your internship, you'd get almost 1/2 back. So off I went.
My reason for wanting to fast was that I was very underweight, had tried a million different holistic approaches to try to gain weight, none of which worked, and had already been eating LFRV for over a year before the fast. I'd read that Shelton had fasted (usually for 1 to 2 weeks) underweight people with great success. I am 5'2" and was at 80 lbs when I started the fast. Loren had assured me that all would be well and that at my weight I probably wouldn't lose weight as rapidly as other fasters, so I might even be able to go the full 21 days, though he'd monitor closely as with all fasters.
Well, after 8 days, I had dropped to 68 lbs and was a bit freaked out about it. I felt a bit strange in the chest area as well and called Loren in to tell him that I thought I should end my fast. He was very agreeable, which surprised me because I had already been hearing from others there that he could be very insistent and controlling. Another couple that were there as interns as well were told to leave when the woman decided to end her fast after 5 days -- he said they had thereby broken their internship contract.
The next morning, I began to refeed slowly and continued to do so for a full week when Loren came to me and informed me that I would need to resume my fast. He tried at first to convince me by saying that my health goals would be better met that way, but I was not feeling good about it. During that week, there had been more strange incidents and reports of rude and inappropriate behavior with other fasters. (Since I didn't witness those first-hand, I won't give those details here) But I was feeling nervous. I asked him for how long he'd expect me to fast and he said 6 or 7 more days. I had only gained back 2 lbs, so I asked what he would do if I asked to stop before the 6 or 7 days. He openly said, with a smile, that he'd give me a really hard time! I knew that I was feeling stronger at that moment, but that I'd surely be weaker and more vulnerable if I started fasting again. I thought deeply about my decision and finally told him no. He then began to harass me about being an intern and having to do whatever the coach says, that it was like being on a sports team and arguing with the coach -- no matter what he may ask of his athletes, they must obey. I knew then that I was making the right decision because I saw his attitude as potentially dangerous. He continued to harass me for another day and a half and finally told me that I would have to leave Tanglewood, immediately, since I was breaking my contract. I had no place to go, no transportation,no time to book a new plane ticket home, and no Spanish skills, weighed under 70 lbs and felt physically weaker than I'd have liked. I was scared. Maybe he thought I'd give in to his will -- luckily, I was not psychologically weak!
I did end up staying another 10 days because my room mate, another intern, who was just finishing up her 40 day fast, did not intend to stay there as the only intern remaining and be subjected to his whims, yet she was too weak to just leave. She threatened to walk out with me if I left right away -- and Loren had enough (barely) decency to acknowledge that her leaving before at least a short controlled refeeding could be very dangerous. We both left after she'd been refeeding for about 8 days, then I stayed with her at a beach house to help her recoup for another week before we parted ways.
Loren was left with no interns, his staff assistant/ office manager quit and several other paying fasters left early with great feelings of trauma. Yet the center still operates -- I hope enough people tell enough people about their experiences so that others can be spared such an ordeal.
As an aside, none of the interns, who all left under duress, were re-imbursed any of our payments."
I'd like to add that my room mate, who was fluent in Spanish, shared with me many of her conversations with the staff, who were all underpaid, ill-treated, afraid of Loren and only remained because work was so hard to obtain.
Also, after my run-in with Loren, when he ordered me to leave immediately, I was visibly shaken up and told others who asked about it. A couple of outspoken guests decided that this was a last straw for them and we all confronted Loren as a group. One of them really laced into him, sharing stories about some incredibly rude and inappropriate comments that he'd made to some of the other fasting guests (these being the incidents I mentioned in my account that I hadn't personally witnessed).
I am glad that you are speaking out here, Victoria. The more details of unprofessionalism, inappropriate behavior and control tactics that can be given, the more others will know to keep their distance from such an unstable and, I think, dangerous man.
Another blogger´s Experience
When I arrived at the Tanglewood Wellness Center I weight 162. My lowest weight was 134. Before I left the Center last Saturday it was up to 138. I still am at 138 a week later. My appetite is still not back to normal yet. I can't say that I 'felt' better after the fast, because I didn't 'feel' bad before the fast. However my foliculitus (which is a scalp condition) did improve greatly during the fast. The hardest part for me(and most frustrating) was the refeeding. Eating the sweet fruits made my face break out and my vitiligo (skin condition) worst. It was frustrating because I told Loren of this, and yet I still had to eat the sweet fruits (or don't eat at all). After doing this 21 day water fast and having no bowel movement; also feeling the plaque matter in my body. In the future I will do either colonics or take some type of Herbal Fiberblend to keep the toxic eliminations moving OUT of my body rather than letting it stay in my body and suffer. There was a few days of extreme weakness and some heart palapatations,
however overall the 21 days went rather smoothly. As to your comment about Loren not liking to answer questions, let me share some of my insights about this with you. When Loren gets questioned and he feels like he is being boxed in, he will often call over an intern (putting the intern on the spot) and have the intern defend Loren's position. For example during one of Loren's lecture a guest questioned Loren about his refeeding program. When Loren felt cornered he called over the intern in the room to help him win his case. He had the intern sit down next to him and then Loren asked her how old she was. The intern is a beautiful woman near 50 with not one grey hair. She looks easily 10 years younger (I also most add that she is older than Loren and looks much younger than Loren). Loren was trying to make the point that, he is right, and if you follow his program you too can look this good. However the fact is (I saw this intern's before fasting photos) this intern was a beautiful, older, heavier set woman before she started her fast. So after the fast she remained an older, beautiful, woman who looked great because she lost about 20 pounds. EVERYBODY looses some weight while fasting. Loren used this intern to try and jusify his position without once answering the guest's question. Just yesterday after I posted my comments about Tanglewood on this forum I receive an email from one of the interns at Tanglewood. This intern wants to know why I am so antagonistic toward Tanglewood; why do I criticize the staff. This intern is telling me that I should stay on a raw fruit diet, etc., etc. This particular intern and I didn't talk much during my time at Tanglewood. I certainly didn't complain to him. What would be the point, all the interns just follow Loren's orders anyway. There would be no point in complaining to an intern. I find it very strange that this intern would email about things that are none of his concern with me the same day I make a post on this forum about Tanglewood?? Could it be that Loren is hiding behind his interns again?? Could it be that Loren told his intern to write me that email?? Just something for everyone to think about. I just want anyone thinking about going to Tanglewood to hear both sides of the story.
___________________________________________________________________________________
I read your post.
Thank you so much for the information. I cannot believe it!
I was communicating with Loren through email and some of the things said just kind of got me thinking....He didn't like me questioning him on anything, acted like everyone could fast, and I with chronic fatigue could go right back to work after a 6 week stay which I highly doubt, and when he found out I am not coming next week he ended the email pretty much. Also, I asked him about a girl who he helped loose like 100 lbs and asked him how is she doing now that she is home....He ignored that question.
___________________________________________________________________________________
"the main reason that is because there were plenty of reasons including him coming on to her(what a dueche) he owed her a lot of money and kept making excuses.so she said fuck it and blazed!"
SchoolOfRAWk´s Experience
SchoolOfRAWk, Eugene, OR
I have heard he has no business at ALL running fasts, and should not be doing it. From other professional water fasting doctors who have met him.... I did know a guy interning there who was liking it, but he was also having an affair and was really a fringe-type, and I only emailed him a few times.
I would never ever send anybody to Creative Health Institute either, and a few "love" their experience. Usually really new agey types who just accept it all as God's wishes. I however saw dying people not get the care they need, and far too much negativity and disorganization, etc. And the groups did too. Never go there unless it's a total last resort, I swear.
I have heard he has no business at ALL running fasts, and should not be doing it. From other professional water fasting doctors who have met him.... I did know a guy interning there who was liking it, but he was also having an affair and was really a fringe-type, and I only emailed him a few times.
I would never ever send anybody to Creative Health Institute either, and a few "love" their experience. Usually really new agey types who just accept it all as God's wishes. I however saw dying people not get the care they need, and far too much negativity and disorganization, etc. And the groups did too. Never go there unless it's a total last resort, I swear.
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